Help me help you (making my Swordmaster better)

[Aelahin]

ok - I run primarily as DPS Khaine specked with Hoeth to Aethyric Armor. I ahve S&S for times when its needed.

I ned links to any good tactics and RvR guides people know to get most out of SMs. Like what should decide between guarding healers, dps'es or going after the destro squishies with ap drain, build drain and dam red.

Also any advice you can give, as I find that now at Rr55 I can actually do solokills on lvl 40s instead of feeling lucky when I do so I should start looking into maximizing my WB usefullness.

Normally I will only run S&S for high endPvE bosses and certain funnels, but for B&Q I will be willing to expand that to some general RvR (Yes, I am a fluff-whore, and a SM with a shield just looks wrong to me).

[Icevixen]

I wanted to reply to this before because I am also trying to level a swordmaster and wanted to keep the thread alive so I get more information about them. I am by no means an expert since I haven't been playing one in t4 level. I have however tried reading about them. It has been said over and over again though in the forums that swordmasters need more utility in RvR. That doesn't mean they are totally useless.

Aside from Whispering Winds (silence) so high in Hoeth tree, or Crashing Wave (knockdown) from Vaul, swordmasters as tanks will only have 1 AoE knockback, 1 single target knockback with tactic, which when used wrong only grants targets immunity and is actually only useful in certain situations (near cliffs and on bridges for example or knocking back a target far far away from their healers) and that's it. Sometimes it does help knocking enemies away from squishies like witch elves then snaring them with quick incision. Theory is easier than actually doing it because it will have a lot to do with correct positioning.

As a primary tank class, always make sure you make use of taunt to interrupt casters' cast and challenge so people around you take less damage. Taunt healers casting a slower cast group heal than DoKs help or some magus doing weird animations.

There is the rank 2 morale AoE snare Wings of Heaven but also situational, you might use and end up landing in the middle of a bomb squad since these are pretty common nowadays. But with semi Hoeth spec you can get pretty high disrupt and that can be useful with Calming Winds and Aethyric Armor plus maybe some renown disrupt skill or items. Then you can daze their healers/sorcs with Dazzling strike or use Dragon's Talon so bomber gets -20% damage reduction. Just careful running too far from your healer's line of sight or range. I get carried away too often myself chasing healers. xD

As Khaine spec, you get damage, more damage, and even more damage so you can pretty much kill squishies fast. I'm trying to level mine as Vaul/Hoeth and although I'm a fluff whore and would rather wield a two-hand weapon myself, we need tanks. :( Even if as Khaine spec you try using hold the line in keep defense, tactics make a huge difference and perfect defenses is in Vaul.

Guard the squishy getting hit ideally. So often times if you have an AoE spec-ed bright wizard, they come before healers and as healers go I guard the archmage first because destros just love ganking them. I think in the tier 2 RvR set, my swordmaster already had more armor than my level 40 archmage in warlord. xD

I hope my post makes sense to you. :) You have more experience in t4 RvR as a swordmaster than me so it would be nice if you could share how it goes for you. I basically weeded through troll posts to make this rather long summary by the way credits still go to other high level swordmasters. :P

[konfuzfanten]

A small note on guard and tanking in rvr:
If you play in SC’s/small rvr don’t guard the healers unless you at all time stay glued to the guarded healer, and thats not a good plan/waste of you skills. Most SC healers should be able to kite 1-2 destro dps at a time without getting killed. Ofc you should always guard and stay very close to the healer if there is only one healer in your party.
Good targets for guards are: bombing BW, slayers(personal favorit), WH, 2-hander tanks and melee WP. If you are guarding you need to use a shield, run with a lot of wounds and always be with 30 ft, just glue youself to the mdps.

On the topic of a dps tank: if you run with a healer this can be great fun and effective, but most of the times it would be better for the party/wb if you go more defensive and go for cc/harassment. As a healer I really don’t like dps tanks, unless I have told them to do it, a 1-hander survival/harassment tank can do a lot more dmg to destro backline(by disrupting), then a 2-hander squishie tank.

[Kabane]

although it pains me to say i agree with konfuz,
imo dps tanks are a waste of space in rvr, i always fall back on the same setup if i can,
Tank guards the casters and healer's, healers heal the DPS/catsers, DPS,Casters kill the healer/catsers/tanks, that order,
i do disagree on one point though mdps shouldnt be guard'ed imo generally they Should be to far away for guard to work doing what they need to be doing and distroying the healer/caster's, so the healers ned to be on the ball and working there magic keeping them alive with the help of the tanks so they dont get distrubtied.

[Aelahin]

I hate Chosen and Witch Elves!

Well with smaller scale I find that when combat occurs I can soak up insane amounts of damage when a healer watches over me, especially an AM.

I hate Chosen and Witch Elves!

With AM guard I can pretty much max Resists, have 9.3K Wounds, Toughness around 550 and 4500 Armor. And thats DPS specked.

With correct use of powers I can raise my parry/dodge to about 65%, and can in a single round of balance put out about 3.5K Spirit damage(before any crits) - on anything other than another tank that hurts.

On the other Hand in large scale RvR I can die in 3 secs from ranged, even if healed.

For scenarios; if its an open kill destro scenario I mostly guard a healer and glue myself to him if its a close fight (like Battle for Praag), if its more open I usually still guard a healer and go offensive frontliner to give it a hard center. Sucks trying to kill an AM that ap drains you with a SM gaurding her using Kamenra and AP drain/build drain first and then just goes DPS on your ass. I've had big scary choppas running at healer screaming and then be shut down fast. But again with my spec anything more than 2 oppenents on me or on healer is too much to fight off without more support.

Did I mention I hate Chosen and Witch Elves?

Chosen are slugfest extremis almost every time. And Witch Elves are so increadibly effective against SMs that whenever I get a KB I start hollering, and if I get a solo kill I litterally get so happy I almost pee my pants.

When I use a shield its usually for funnel or as a Tomb/dungeon 2nd tank, so the effectiveness is a bit off since my spec is still khaine and its such a concentrated environment. I've not had a go fully specked and geared for S&S. My Block is somewhat low, but with tactics for toughness, heal increase, free parry I can increase that. And If I get a LotD shield I can slot Block talismans to increase it.

If someone can link a known swesome build on wardb.com for S&S SM to about lvl40/60 I would appriciate it.

But the SM definently needs some TLC from Mythic - we are a bit like an amateur Bard; Master of nothing, shabby at many things. Crap at many more.

If they fix us so we get the best CC skills Order would have a true guard tank(IB), a group buff/bolster tank (KotBS) and a CC offensive tank in us. As is we are always outmatched by others in everything maybe excepting DPS, and that not by much.

Its a mix of mechanic and skill effects costs in trees. Much better with something like the IB grudge, so the more the SM can "dance" the better his skills get.

Guess the SM is just the class that really can't be solo in RvR and still be a factor. We definently need a group to get the best, as it is, out of us.

I really need that 3K absorb pocket item from LotD, man I need it.


And Kabane you're right to be pained. Having to agree with Konfuz on anything is very upsetting for most carbon-based lifeforms (exept Mythic Class Devs, who we all know are from the planet Zog and permanently out to lunch)

[Polemides]

Well I s'pose as my SM is my main, I can throw my meagre knowledge in.

From what I've gathered and tested, SM are an extremely hard class to play due to the balance mechanic. They seem to have been left behind in the group utility stakes almost as bad as the WL, with only Nature's Blade as the only buff close to offering the group any benefits. (I don't count Bosltering Enchantments as a +60HP tick is peanuts compared to any healer contribution in group).

STATS: I have around 670 STR, 600 Toughness, 7.2K WNDS with 2H and 8K with S&B. For my Renown purchases, Might IV, and Init II Wounds II, and then save for Parry%

MASTERIES: I'm current Hoeth to PoH (no AA), and Khaine to ED. I love the 2H spec, but realise that you're about as durable as a Slayer until you get some half decent armour/talis/jewels. I think Vaul/Hoeth tanks are fantastic at damage avoidance/absorption, but the dmg output is tiny. Vaul/Hoeth tanks depend quite a bit on tactics crit'ing, especially PE and EA. With Patch 1.3.4, they no longer crit, so Vaul/Hoeth is quite hard done by imho. CA used to be great until the duration was dropped from 5s to 3s (!!!), and WW is another ability that was shortened in duration (5s to 4s). Meanwhile, Destro's "Quake", is still 9s in duration. Sound fair? Regardless, the ability to knock-down or silence is massive, but you do have to sacrifice quite a bit of dmg output to get up those mastery trees. For example, you would be able to silence a zealot, but prolly not kill him without help, or very effective taunting and repeated CA/WW. Is that useful? That's a question you have to decide on.

Protection of Hoeth: I hate spamming PoH, but it is great for getting quickly into Perfect Stance and ED. PoH was horribly broken not to far back, when the devs decided that it would work alongside damage mitigation, instead of after it. It made PoH redundant and pretty useless. Now, I cycle it every other sequence, and at 700 dmg absorb, while not great compared to other classes, it certainly makes a difference.

AA to me is great while levelling a SM and pretty pointless once you hit T4 as you can get the WP armour buff (or make it up with an armour pot). The 5% disrupt is nice, but at at overall cost of a a mastery point, I decided to leave it, and really haven't noticed a difference. (I think AA was giving me 600 odd armour, armour pots give you 594, and the WP buff, usually a bit more)

1H or 2H: The eternal question. I've always wondered about 1H SMs. I don't even know why they allowed it when IB and KotBS do it far far better with shields. Just looks and lore wise, again, S&B SMs look silly. However, that shield will definitely help at lower RRs. For guarding healers/casters, wear the shield, as the block directly contributes to your guard on the casters. Without it, you will only contribute your parry % and your nml armour. 2H SMs, can put out some crazy damage if specc'd right. When I go 2H I slot IR, GWM, Rugged and PE (I switch this as well depending on circumstance, such as IP-more effective heals if there's not many healers in grp or EA- if you've got great healers, and want extra dmg output).

From what I've seen and read, for effective 2H tanking it's best to have an armour jewel set dedicated to PvE, and one for PvP. Dark Promise is well suited to PvE, and Invader for PvP.. For PvE make sure you get armour to 100% mitigation (yes, 100% due to the way some bosses hit), and % to be crit as ZERO. For PvP, (Invader) get STR and WNDS. In both cases max parry as high as you can. With GWM, Perfect Defences (10%), %Parry Renown (12%) purchase, effective Eagle's Flight use (25%), and some common % Parry jewels, you could easily look at 50% parry in Perfect Stance. Throw in IR, and the next attack is parried as well. Not bad at all.

S&B would work in the same way except that you now have % Block thrown in. Damage goes down, and survivability goes up.

ABILITIES: PoH --> Eagle's Flight --> Taunt --> ED --> EA--> DI --> DT
Mix'n Match to your own play style. I think it's extremely important to have EF going at all times though!

ITEMS: For PvP, get the Kamera jewel. I'll slot the one I have into Invader arms if I ever finally get 'em! Helps in making sure you never run out of AP, while snatching it from others. Superb. I have the Assassin's Cloak and Medal from LotD for PvP, and the Parry jewel from LotD, Herald's Cloak (-3% to be crit), among others. I won't bore on the subject.

For 2H tanking, obviously Sword of the Sandstorm is nice, though be prepared to pay 3-4K for it, or farm it for hours and hours. GS (R4 Elf Inf), and Sword of Serethis (N'Khari drop).

1H, Butcher's Windblade springs directly to mind, though that's probably because I have 4 of them!

For roles, if you trail after Eein/Sor/Kiltz (or any Bomb-spec BW), sling the 2H. break out the shield and make sure they stay alive long enough to bomb the hell out of Destro. Damage out isn't important, keeping your Guard target up is. If there's a more effective Guard available (like IBs), then go crazy with the 2H, and as Ice said, Challenge and Taunt as soon as they are ready. Champion's Challenge is great for caging feckin' Squiggies and Shamans, Wings of Heaven is ok, and Raze is nice for a blanket 900dmg carpet. M4 Immaculate Defence is great for PvE, use it wisely on the bosses in LV. Never forget the usefulness of WoDS either, pop it in Perfect Stance, and you should survive long enough to make it to a healer!

And that's that. I'm no uber SM by any stretch of the imagination, but I've lurked on enough boards to pick up a few things... kinda like duct tape placed on a dirty carpet, then torn free.

[Icevixen]

How can you not kill a zealot? Maybe in t4 but in t3 I can still do it without those spirit dot procs from tactics. Graceful strike>Wrath of Hoeth>Dazzling strike taunt when it seems to cast and the 30% boost in damage then just bash it down until dies. Hardly do they hit you 3 times or they are new to war and tendency is to run not to mention shatter enchantment when they have a hot up, that I sometimes forget. Hehe! Although loldps probably won't need as much effort. When grouped with a warrior priest sure armor buff from AA is useless but the disrupt still isn't. Problem is having perfect setups though, we almost never have them sometimes you're lucky if you even have 1 healer in party.

Someone did suggest this
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#0:0:13:10280:9:544:29:9045:9047: 9069:9064::::606:9057:9058:613
But I want to try getting crushing advance rather than redirected force for 1 more interrupt and yes healers have to die!

As guarding goes, I'm trying to practice switching guards to whichever squishy is getting hit unless there are other tanks in the group also who says who he/she is guarding but that is something I have to get used to because most of the time I don't get to see what is happening behind me. xD

To say DPS tanks are useless is like saying DPS healers are useless and though that is true to some extent, we play to have fun and play how we feel like playing. :) I still want to try being loldps AM someday and although they will never really make it in "perfect" set-ups we never really have perfect warband set-ups. Then we would all have to roll KotBS/BW/WP and slayers. Since if it's just bombing it seems those are the only classes you really need. xD Oh and even then we won't even have to think, spam 1 button group heals 1 button scorched earth and hold the line (maybe sometimes morales). :P