Archmage

[Icevixen]

It has been mentioned several times already that we need more utility in RvR. The "Scatter the Winds" -50% incoming heal debuff is awesome and so is silence. I was just wondering if that stacks with Witch Hunter incoming heal debuff? It does seem to stack on the destro side.

I run with this build at the moment.
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=20#15:10272:0:0:7:0:25:9278:9283:59 2:9293::::9302:695:696:697
I tried hard to get Vaul "Law of Gold" for silence. It won't let me show my entire build with the bonus mastery points from renown rank. I will get Isha r4 morale back when I hit rr70. I can easily put points in Asuryan instead and get "Scatter the Winds." But I will lose Rain Lord -102 strength/intelligence/ballistic and Law of Age -102 toughness debuff.

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=20#15:10272:7:0:0:0:25:9278:9283:59 2:9293::::9302:695:696:697

We have a lot of Archmagi, I just wanted to get your opinions on this. Or I can be lazy not hexing and just spam heal? Haha!

[Dvorf]

Tanks also have healing debuff , Ironbreaker and Knight of the blazing sun, not sure about Swordmaster.

This is an utility that destro uses against us in RvR and Scenario premade.

I suggest everyone goes through their skill list and see what skills are beneficial for orvr/scenario group.

IF you wonder why order players loose so much in scenario, the reason is simple. Destro players know how to play their skills and tactic perfectly.

Most skills used currently from destro side: healing debuff (incoming and outgoing), stagger (morale/ability), silence, aoe knockdown.

If your up against a premade, its still a 50-50 chance of winning even with a pug, if your pug know how to play their part.

[Peavey]

I think it should stack.. my lovely healing debuff is 25% ... i turn and leave it on when dancing with shammies and zealots and doks

:D everything lynn said is pure truth... a lot of order do not take advantage of such skills and tactic and put it together in their strategy.... if you want to be successful you have to coordinate this well :D

[Zafiriel]

I'm by no means an expert on the subject but I prefer the debuff way:

Rain Lord (-str/int/ball),
Law of Age (-toughness)
Storm of Cronos (-spirit res and does some aoe dmg)

Besides the obvious usefulness of offensive and defensive stat debufs these abilities are all AoE and will affect all enemies in the area.
Also being AoE they are pretty straightforward to use and thus won't take your attention away too much from our most important job and that's healing, of course ;)

I also find Magical Infusion useful... when I remember to use it...



On the other hand I'd like to hear your opinions on the best tactics for RvR:


I slot: Mater of Tranquility, Desperation, Discipline and Restorative Burst (40 AP on crit heal)

My question: is the Wild Healing that good that it's worth a mastery point? Restorative Burst is doing more or less a similar thing... or I'm wrong... ;)

Anyway for what it's worth that's my 5c...

and thanks Ice for starting this topic, I'm sure it'll be useful for all of us
:beer:

Zaf

[Icevixen]

My AP stays fine with wild healing actually although they said it doesn't work for our hots. I will try to use Restorative Burst to see how it compares. If it is as good then it's another mastery point. :D I prefer the Vaul path as well actually. I let go of Magical Infusion because it's very rarely useful. When your target is focus fired, no amount of healing saves them. =/

I am not talking about scenarios although I have to say we win 85% of them. Pre-made PUG or with some guildies/friends but I don't do scenarios so much. :P That might change when they do start dropping new pvp weapons. I agree destros know how to use their skills and their add-ons. ^_^

If bombing is so 2009, I can let go of silencing bombing sorcs and get the healing debuff which will stack with the tank's healing debuff.

We're getting to be "known" and were wanted in 6vs6 events not that I'd actually join that when I can leech renown in rvr like Prelate posted.

Thanks for the comments because I really only play my class and didn't know that about tanks. Now I hope Ovation has the calling add-on so I can assist easily because with silence, it doesn't necessarily have to be cast on the current target but a healing debuff would be. xD

[Polemides]

Swordmasters actually have a healing buff, very, very small, as a tactic (I'll edit later when I remember). No de-buff. One of the big problems with SMs is their lack of group utility. They have some armour and resistance de-buffs, and one stat steal which lasts about 8s. The use on it is debatable.

Oh us poor SMs.... ::sniff

EDIT:
2 tactics (not abilities)
Bosltering Enchantments: Whenever Blade enchantments proc, each in group is healed for round about 200 (depending on level) over 10s (yes, it's awful)
Blessing of Heaven: Strike the SM's target and get heal 100 over 3 seconds.(yep, awful waste of a tactic slot)

[konfuzfanten]

I must respectfully disagree, with a few things here:
1) no destro dont use their skills better or are better players. On Azgal we (destro) though the same of order. Its your perception that deceives you. When you see a rr 70+ WE destroying you in 3 sec you think that all WE can destroy you in 3 sec, but fact of the matter is that most WE are crap and can be kited/punted/or burned down before they can do any serious damage. Look at my 5 top grudges(ppl that have DB me): a Choppa (damn you Misterandersen!), herder, sorc, herder and chosen.

Most of the destro that keep killing you are the same high RR players. Look at the BG, generally the crapist destro tank/mdps, but I still have a BG on my top 10 grudges list. This one BG is nearly impossible to kite or kill compared to other BG/tanks I have played or duels against.

2) yes in massive ORvR no amout of healing can stop a target from dying if a whole WB is focus firing, BUT a AM can heal through 2-4 ppl that are focus firing on a friendly target. Tools for this is Boon of Hysh and our M2 Focused Mind. Pop the M2 and go wild with Boon of Hysh, the amount of healing you can spam on a single target in 10 sec is just mind bubbling. As our morals are now, you should only use M1 Ishas ward (the best protection skill we have) and our monster M2 focused mind. Just pop focused mind hit the groupheal button or Boon of Hysh and your group/ a single target will go from nearly dead to full health in around 6-10 sec. Remember to slot wild healing for this to work and use our AP drain skill.

3) No wild healing don’t proc from the ticks from the hots (but wild healing do proc from the first tick/cast). Wild healing vs Restorative Burst: if you ever use your groupheal then Wild healing is the best, if you only uses the hots+funnel essence/ boon of hysh, don’t use AP gen tactics, go with our AP drain skill.

4) The best tactics for RvR AM, really depends on your group/wb setup. There are 3 main rvr situations that dictate different RvR tactics.

a) massive rvr(+1wb on each side/tier 4 orvr):
Your main task as a healer/AM in tier 4 orvr is using groupheal, funnel essence/boon of hysh and rez. When the zerg hits a WB the battle is normally over before it really gets going so debuffs are normally a waste of time. Focus on groupheals and you 2 singletarget heals (funnel essence and boon of hysh) and ofc rez ppl. Tactics in orvr are pretty much the same: wild healing (much better then restorative burst), desperation, +wp and crit tactic. Now if you run in a WB with 2 healers in every group go with desperation, +wp, crit tactic AND hurried restore(our instance rez tactic). Say to every healer in the WB that you will be the wb-rezzer and focus on using funnel essence/boon of hysh and rez. Hurried restore is one of those tactics that CAN turn at battle. A group with a WP spamming groupheals and you with instance rez tactic is very difficult to take down.

b) small scale(sc or under 3 groups of ppl) rvr: this is pretty much the same as in Orvr, but now you need to use the debuffs. Depending on your group setup, this is the best tactis in small rvr:
Main healer: wild healing, desperation, +wp and crit, spam group heals and funnel essence.
Single target/rezzer healer: desperation, +wp, crit tactic and hurried restore, use hots, funnel essence, Boon, debuffs, dots, rez...the whole arsenal.

Every premade should have a AM+WP combination if the group wants to reach its full potential.

c) solo healing/ renown whoring:
Slot desperation, +wp, crit tactic and Run Between the Worlds (for extra protection), and go crazy with hots, funnel essence and boon of hysh.


Now on the topic of AM builds: again it really depends on what and how you play. I know that you don’t do SC’s Ice so your secondary skill tree is not that important. But if you want to do SC here is what Im using: http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=20#13:10784:9:512:0:0:29
Now why this build: I do a lot of PvE so the extra dmg/dot is needed for the boss fights, when I run SCs the healer debuff means that I can keep our group target constantly healer debuffed, with means a lot in bombgroups/focus fire groups.
The only thing I loss is a little protection from our shield, and I do a little less debuffing, but not that much. Without a single point in Vaul I still debuffs tgh and str/int with 75.
And now for the important point: don’t use silence as a healer, it will give your target immunity. As a former herder I know that nothing is more frustrating then getting a healer/squishy to around 50% firing the silence to finish the target of but because of immunity the target just heals up.

So leave the silencing to the dps.

NB! All AM should use our AP drain skill, it should always be on CD If any destro are near by.

[Zafiriel]

Big thanks Konfuz for this in depth analysis/guide for our favorite class!
I never considered some of the options you suggest, will try them out for sure...

Thanks!

Zaf

[Peavey]

I've been on quiet a bunch of premades to see (in my personal encounters) that many destro premades put their pieces together well.. let's not turn this discussion into an ultimate thread of which realm is better.. I have also played with many skilled order who can be an antithesis to destros organized opposition.

Kiltz and prelate been on a few good premades and seen the lot like moonlapse leave the sc :D

AM's brings good stuff to rvr, it is great to see this thread running as it would be useful knowledge sharing and yes we could benefit a lot from the fruitful discussion so as to be better on the battlefield :beer:

[Icevixen]

I agree with a lot of the points you made Konfuz. It does depend on the set-up of the entire warband/group. Hardly do I sometimes get a 2nd healer in a warband though.

I never get the res tactic, firing a few spells, our res can be instant. If you have 2 healers in a group, you get to cast spells. :P I don't really see how much heal my transfer force does though with my points in Vaul but when I crit for 300+, that should mean the person being hit would be healed by 450 which is like a non crit hot.

My spec for pve isn't so different, I just slot subtlety instead of desperation. Yeah, at the moment scenarios are of no interest to me, but that might change when they start dropping new weapons like I mentioned. xD

I tried restorative burst and I have to say it will only proc for direct heals meaning hyish or our group heal. Unlike wild healing which is almost always up for me. If you're into using focused mind and then spamming hyish/group heals then I think wild healing is better because you get to cast more heals in a few seconds time at 50% less AP cost than restorative burst which will give 40 AP over 3 seconds.

I wasn't aware about silence giving immunity because many times I've been silenced and still get killed. The immunity buff they get if ever hardly even matters if they end up dead anyway. I've even experienced getting silenced and then knocked down twice before I died so not sure what immunity to what that gives. I do see the "immunity" buff after a knockdown, which is weird. If I do get to target a bombing sorc, that's 1 less destro in a group doing AoE damage and it does help. In the same way silencing a healer makes your group able to kill their dps without so much heals for 5 seconds.

So aside from SW, who else has silence?

But I have to say our healing debuff is awesome. It's just impossible to have both and still have points left for healing. The way it is now too, with bombing groups just running all over you, makes the healing debuff only useful for non-bomb squad groups.


Must be the hardcore left in me wanting to see the day we won't get rolled over by Hand of Blob. :P

OK I will respec similar to what you have Konfuz. My silence will be useless if their set-up is like this with 5 sorcs. xD

http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/gJEokuN/full/lokax_588-jpg.jpg

[Peavey]

Warrior Priest has got silence as well

[Icevixen]

That's good to know. Then I'll get the heal debuff since it seems to be the most useful tool our class has.

Tried to watch bombing videos, makes me sad though how other classes are made useless. ;( Like we all should've made Empire classes. Shouldn't be a problem for our guild though we have those classes in abundance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HReNUl2kww0

Does seem the most effective thing to wipe huge groups. Actually I had this idea way before I hit t4, just didn't know they called it bombing. Haha!

If Konfuz is watching notice he gets knocked down around 1:15 twice. Video is a bit faster than normal but that immunity really only lasts for so few secs if at all seems it only needed the skill to cooldown.

[Zafiriel]

I tried wild healing last night and I must say it's way better than restorative burst, I really felt the difference. Thanks for sharing, this was an eye opener of sure.

Respected for heal debuff also, the dots boost that this spec gives is quite welcomed in PvE as I experienced last night, and debuffs are still ok...
Haven't tried it in RvR, what heal debuff is for, I'll see tonight during the King push, but I'm very satisfied with the general results for now.

My thanks to you both!
:beer:

Zaf

[Fystryn]

This is my spec: http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=20#15:8736:9:544:0:0:29:9278:9283:5 92:::::9302:695:696:697

I wouldn't be without the heal debuff - much more useful than the silence. Also I like Cleansing Flare - in some keeps you can use this to knock enemies right off the keep and down onto your waiting friends. Mistress of the Marsh is also a must-have - can't beat a ranged AoE 60% snare.

I don't use either Wild Healing or Restorative Burst tactics. I hit my AP drain whenever it is up and I find it almost impossible to run out of AP. I know from playing other classes how crippling it is when an enemy AM or shammie hits you with the AP drain.

For tactics, I nearly always use Discipline, Desperation and Tranquillity, and for RvR usually Run Between Worlds.

[konfuzfanten]

Ice is right the immunity timer is fucked up especially when its zerg vs zerg. It’s the same thing with the GCD bug. I really dislike the zerg against zerg environment of Orvr tier 4, so I normally do solo or premades SC and here the immunity timer really counts.

"but wild healing do proc from the first tick/cast of hots"
This is no longer true, when I played on my shaman, the shaman tgh+healer hot proced but now no hots proc the crit tactics. So no AM AP tactic will work with hots. So just a correction from my side.

"I never get the res tactic, firing a few spells, our res can be instant."
Again it really depends on the situation and as Ice says every AM should use our mechanics! But in a small rvr/premade sc you don’t have the time to cast dots or dmg spells. You should concentrate on single target healing the bombing BW and rezing him WHEN he goes down. And remember if you slot the instance rez tactic and you move at the right time, you will NOT get stuned. Yes it’s a bug, but what the hell.

"The way it is now too, with bombing groups just running all over you, makes the healing debuff only useful for non-bomb squad groups"
Again I must respectfully disagree, the healer debuff is essential in small scale rvr, cast the healer debuff on a bombing sorc and she will melt if she continues to run straight ahead in to the battle lines or healer debuff the destro healer and watch the group single target dps slaughter him. Now if we are talking Orvr tier 4 (zerg against zerg) you can do anything you like, your impacted on the outcome of the battle will be barely noticeable.

[Icevixen]

Thanks for all the comments as well. I have tried the AP drain tactic, it does help with AP and in a way it's good versus bomb squads only if at least 3 AM's use it at the same time. This is just in theory because after I changed my UI I found out I only have 275 AP. So the others would have approximately the same or 300+ with a set bonus. Draining 92 AP over 9 seconds for everyone within 20 ft of the target would deprive the entire blob with AP to bomb with.

I will have to try to run with Run Between Worlds because that together with resolute defense, you are almost always safe from a lot of crowd control skills.

When I get to rr70, I still need 1.3 renown ranks though, I'll try getting Cleansing Flare.

Konfuz, I didn't know about that bug and that you don't get stunned if you move. That's something to consider so thanks for sharing. xD

[Zafiriel]

Just wanted to share this excellent Healing Gear guide for AMs.
I'm certain someone will find it useful, I sure did.
Enjoy :)

edit:
they reorganized the US WAR forums and so changed the forum thread addresses (!)
here's the new one for the guide:

http://forums.warhammeronline.com/warhammer/board/message?board.id=archetype_healers&thread.id=3367

[Icevixen]

I can't open that link for some reason Zaf. :(

Just something I remember usually the ones guarded would still be the bombing sorc so it does still take too much time getting them down not to mention they are also the ones focus healed like we'd do to our bombing bws thus also cleansed so I still try to cast as many hexes as I can then the heal debuff in scenario in zerg vs zerg I'm dead before I can do that.

I disagree about the barely noticeable in zerg vs zerg Nomanner shows that (they only have 1 chosen-using a 2h even/dok/zealot who aren't even high rr). But they use every single proc and damage/defense boost they can not to mention best builds. fotm ftw! Wonder when elves will be fotm in war. Thus my quest for a nice build for my class. But check out these morales if spammed at the same time -

Windblock (inflicts 1800 damage to all targets within 30 feet of you making heals 50% effective on them for 10 seconds.) this makes our heal debuff seem pathetic- morale can't be cleansed right?
Sprout Carapace (In a chaotic surge of growth, everyone in the group's skin hardens increasing armor by 1320 and all resists by 504 for 30 seconds. Everyone receives 100 AP as well.)
Thousand and One Dark Blessings (All of your groupmates within 100 feet have their armor increased by 825, block, parry, dodge and disrupt by 25%, and all resists by 315 for the next 30 seconds)

How do order class morales compare to that? 30 seconds of semi immortality that 1 dok can group heal the damage through? If only Wind's Protection works as the tooltip describes then it shouldn't have a value for the amount absorbed and just absorb everything for the full 15 seconds and it will be way more useful than just divine protection.

OK I should stop digressing. lol

Just had to ask if our wind blast and cleansing flare (with mechanics it's insta-cast) both give immunity buffs? If not it would be great if we can spam 1 after the other just to survive.

It's now also a lot more painful that mdps skill that removes cc also now includes snares so we're more susceptible to choppas/witch elves chasing us and for some reason they also run fast. =/